Dhritarashtra said: 'What is the purpose of asceticism (mauna)? Which of the two kinds of mauna — restraint of speech and meditation — do you approve? O wise one, tell me the true nature of mauna. Can a learned man attain the state of tranquility and liberation (moksha) through this mauna? O Muni, how else may asceticism (mauna) be practiced here?' Sanatsujata said: 'Since neither the Vedas nor the mind can penetrate the Supreme Soul, it is for this very reason that the Soul itself is called mauna. That from which both the Vedic syllable Om and this (ordinary sound) arose — that One, O king, manifests as the Word.' Dhritarashtra said: 'Is he who knows both the Rig and Yajur Vedas, and he who knows the Sama Veda, stained by sin or not, when he commits sinful acts?' Sanatsujata said: 'Truly I tell you, a man who has not subdued his senses will not be saved from his sinful deeds by the Sama, the Rig, or the Yajur Veda. The Vedas never save from sin a false man who lives by deceit. On the contrary, like fledgling birds that leave their nest, the Vedas in the end abandon such a man.' Dhritarashtra said: 'O you who have subdued your senses, if the Vedas are indeed unable to save a man without the aid of virtue, whence then comes this delusion of the brahmanas that the Vedas always destroy sin?' Sanatsujata said: 'O great-souled one, this universe arose from the Supreme Soul through the union of States pertaining to name, form, and other attributes. The Vedas too, duly pointing to this, declare the same, and teach that the Supreme Soul and the universe are distinct and not identical. It is for the attainment of this Supreme Soul that asceticism and sacrifice are ordained, and it is through them that the learned man obtains virtue.'